Slash in Outsiders fic

[latch22]

For a while, I thought that I just didn't like slash, especially since I wasn't fond of, well, most pairings anyway. Then I realized that I just can't see these masculine, image-protecting guys from the sixties--when nobody was out of the closet--groping people that felt like brothers to them (and on that note, I'm not even going to touch why incestuous pairings seem to be so popular...).

Even if they really were attracted to each other, I think that they would ignore it, rather than act on it.

It's not any personal objection to homosexuality; it's just that there are other ways to get two male characters to have intriguing interactions and relationships than romance, which seems to be the only objective of most slash anyway. I'll admit, though, that at this point there are actually a few slash pairings that make sense to me, or that I at least find interesting. They're not Outsiders-related, though.

I think that some people slash the characters because of how they interact, and their chemistry. Others, possibly, just happen to really like both characters. Like I said, though, I wouldn't really know... I do have another theory, though: perhaps some people aren't sure how best to have them express themselves and act a certain way unless they do that, in which case they're usually feminized. (I don't think that 'feminized' is a word. It should be, though.) You know, that didn't come out right, so I hope that I didn't confuse anybody.

In Outsiders, I don't personally feel that there is any canon evidence that these guys were anything but the hormonally-charged, skirt-chasing (Lola notwithstanding), likely homophobic characters that they seemed, to me, to be.

I have come across some male slash writers, but you're right: slash writers are predominantly female... I really have no idea for that one. I mean, I do, but it won't come out right so I'll just cut it short, lol. Trust me, you don't want to hear my jumbled theory.

Good topic, Mars. Thanks for starting it. (You always do seem to start the best topics...)

Cheers!

[zevie]

Most fanfic writers in general seem to be female, so it's not surprising that applies to slash as well. I think there are probably other reasons too. I'm gonna put one down just in case it makes sense, but it's a bit jumbly, lol. I think it's a safe outlet for sex/romance writing. First of all, probably more socially acceptable for guys to be sex-minded than girls. Second, provides exploration of writing sexual activities without the possibility of the reader connecting a character to the author (I think) which makes it removed enough from the writer to be safe (and also explains why one of the characters is usually heavily feminized - it's really a hetero romance in disguise a lot of the time). For guys, unless you're gay or you're really open minded, it's probably a needless exercise in feeling uncomfortable. I'm guessing, though, cause obviously I'm not a guy. Anyway... that's my garbled attempt at psychology. I hope this was pg-rated...gave me the giggles anyway, cause I'm incredibly mature.

I don't know if I should say I like slash or not, lol. I'm tempted to say not, but if I say that I'm a huge hypocrite cause I started it on the ffnet fandom. But, I think it's just like anything else - there's a lot of really bad stuff out there, some okay stuff and a normal amount of really great things. Same as boy/girl romances, I'd say (although, probably less romance and more sex).

I think there's a possibility for pretty much anything. I think the highest possibility, homo-wise, is not a relationship, and probably something a little less risque than full on sex, but again, this makes me a giant hypocrite. The basis in the canon material, as far as I can tell, is this: there are seven main character guys. And Tim. And generally, the consensus is that they're all relatively good looking, or attractive in some way. Yeah, Dally loves Johnny and vice versa, but in the book that's probably *at least* 98 percent platonic. So chances are, any slashy stuff that's longer than a one-shot or a repressed-sexuality fic are AU. (Again, I am the world's biggest hypocrite.)

I should probably say something in defense of slash fics though, lol. Likely the guys are homophobic, and living in incredibly homophobic conditions. But, in the sixties, it's really not true that nobody was out - nobody in Tulsa, probably, or at least not for long. There have always (and I do mean always) been people (usually famous) who are out. Usually they suffer for it. But, even if you're not out, there was and is a huge underground community. Apparently, Tulsa's first gay bar opened in 1957. Yeah, I know, shocking, huh? It's probably the oldest in the USA. I found this really weird, lol.

Anyway, my point is, I don't think it's completely out of the question (obviously, lol). It's not supported really by the novel, but it doesn't necessarily negate the canon info either. And I've come across some really good ones. Usually, they do not have happy endings - in that respect, they might be a little truer to life than some hetero romance fics. Sorry, I managed to babble this much again - thought I'd kicked the habit, lol. Oh, well.

[zevie]

I thought of one more point, sorry, lol.

With canon slash, there's no possibility of a Mary-Sue taking the spotlight from the guys. Jes sayin'.

[Tensleep]

Well, I don't have much basis to say anything since I neither write slash nor know any homosexuals, but hey. That's why they gave me the admin star .

I think Slash is the ultimately out there fantasy for this section since they were all very heterosexually portrayed in the novel. It's just another way to play with the characters and readers can take it or leave it.

But I think the main reason - and you all can credit my roommate for this one - Slash is hot. *Shrugs* I can see it being hot, but just not with these characters. They really have no reason to be anything different than what they were canonically portrayed and that was as straight males. There would have to be a reason for it, you know? Just random Two-Bit falls for Pony in a non-brother like way doesn't work for me. There would have to be a lot of back story before the sex portion pops up. Even then I would be iffy.

Ah, like I said, I'm probably the last person you should ask about this.

And that's my two bits.

See ya in the funny papers!!!

Tens

[samanthamae]

I'm lying if I say I've never read slash. I'm lying if I say I've never written slash, lol.

But I've never written Outsiders slash, and I don't read much of it. Mostly it takes the boys out of character, like mars mentioned. I've seen some decent ones, though, that's not just revolving around the two boys dating. I don't know...I'm kinda weird when it comes to slash. I like it when it's not OOC, and when it's about two characters who really could be gay. The greasers...er...I never read hints of them being attracted to each other. I also second Tens.

Meh...I don't know. I'm not really good at throwing opinions out while making sense.

[latch22]

That's true, Zevie. I actually am guilty of forcing my point a bit on that one; there were people who were out. I just don't think that these guys would be hanging around any of them, lol.

That's a good point about most fanfic writers being female. Thanks for bringing that up.

What I find interesting is how that just happened to be an incredibly homophobic time between periods of acceptance; even in the late-1800s/early-1900s, homosexual people (at least in the north east, as far as I know) were more or less ignored, and definitely had their own community that wasn't even entirely underground. They were just expected to have the decency to go about their business at night. Actually, it's really an interesting subject once you get into it.

But the sixties... not so much. Although, yes, there are always--and always have been--public figures who are gay.

I'm not saying that slash can't be good if tackled by a good writer; it just won't ring true to me.

And another good point! You're on a roll, I swear. The author can't be accused of Mary-Suism if they don't create a character of their own, but rather mold the canon character into their own image... usually by making him effeminate. Now, that's just sneaky.

"I think a lot of writers can't find ways to have the male characters express their emotions without it seeming OOC, so it's easy to just go really OOC and slash them. It's easier to accept the emotions coming from a couple than friends, I think."

I don't know if it sounded that way, but that was the point that I was trying to make--thanks for phrasing it better, Mars.

Cheers!

[fairlane]

I enjoy reading slash, I don't read it for the realism. Its fun. And in canon Ponyboy admits he is not into girls yet, so hey its possible

[fosterchild]

Hot boy sex!! LMAO!! That's great!

Going back to that porn without plot thing....I hope you realize I was being a wiseass in the other thread!

Slash....well I did write that one mildly slashy thing with Tim and Dallas....it popped into my head and I wrote it. I don't necessarily see any of the characters BEING gay. However, it's all fiction and in fanfic you can make something out of nothing if you really want to. I've read some where it is just the hot boy sex (still lmao at that comment!) but I've read others where it's not bad or even really enjoyable (zevie).

Basically, it's definitely not based in reality but sometimes it can be fun.

As for why most slash writers are female...my personal opinion is that I find it very hard for me to write a believable romantic female character without turning her into a slut or a bitch or some clingy little twit. That's just me, though. I need to work on that. Plus I think sometimes it's interesting to make a guy more vulnerable.

Ok, I've gone on long enough....

[fairlane]

See I find reading boy/girl PWP incredibly boring, but if it's Tim/Dally PWP its all good. It still needs to be well written, but there are some pretty good slash writers on the site.

[zevie]

I'm back on this thread, lol. Sorry, I'm a blabbermouth. But, even though I didn't totally stick up for it, slash is pretty near and dear to me, I guess (not in a totally personal way, lol, Tim's my "man"...well...mars you can have half ). They're issues that I've been close to, and grown up with. I mean, come on - I live in Toronto. We're like one step away from San Fran at times. But, I've seen the way things can go, and the stories can be terrifying and amazing and horrifying and it's reality. It's an issue that reminds me of the emotional basis of the book, a bit (bear with me while I get simpery). Being social outcasts, having people look down on you automatically, getting beaten up for that reason only and losing friends...I see a lot of parallels in the prejudice in the novel and in real life homosexual situations. But, that is because I've been around a lot of it. If you haven't, I probably just came off very weepy and preachy and whiney just there, lol.

For PWP I think it's just the vice-versa of guys being into lesbian porn, lol. Except girls don't like gross visuals, apparently. We like to WORK for the hot boy sex (and lol as well, artemis!). I don't mind when people just go right to the sex sometimes, if it kicks off a plot - in fact, I can see it being a real reason for it happening at all (although, sometimes, maybe not the most interesting read, unless you're looking for porn, heh). In some cases, though, I'm much more likely to believe that Steve and Soda would bomb on their dates, get piss drunk and feel each other up cause they're horny rather than that they would suddenly realize they were in love and make out. Kissing is a heck of a lot more gay than a handjob (if I broke the swearing rule just there - sorry! I can't tell what's swearage anymore - "There's Something About Mary" bleeped out a sexual "loaded gun"). I know that seems counter-intuitive, but it's what I've heard from every gay source I have, cause, what excuse is there for kissing another guy if you're not gay? (Not my opinion, just trying to reason it like one of the gang...) But, if it's *just* sex, then, yeah, you had better just want a porn read (not that that's wrong, lol).

The one thing that really bugs me when reading slash is a coming out fic (my hypocrite status just keeps rising...). That's where the real suspension of disbelief comes in for me. I think of all the gang, only Soda shows tendencies of being accepting, and that's only cause Pony said he understands everything. But, then again, maybe not. Dally'd probably "flatten him", lol. And the rest of the guys would probably completely freeze the gay one out. He'd be completely alone, probably his "lover" would ditch him if he were smart about it, so he wouldn't get sucked into his problems. I've seen that happen too many times. But, I'll put away the tiny violin. Latch, I think you're right - the late sixties/seventies were a time of experimentation and pushing the boundaries, but that still means the boundaries were there, right? So, even though I really believe there was a ton of gay activity (well, you know what I mean) it wasn't acceptable (heck, gay sex was illegal in a bunch of the southern states until like, five years ago, no joke). If a guy did come out, he'd have been toast. Definitely AU. But, there's my piece defending slash, I guess. *sniffle, tear*

(P.S. fosterchild - I'm red now, cause I haven't updated in...um...how long?)

[fosterchild]

Get UN red and get updating, dammit!!! LOL

They bleeped 'loaded gun' for real??!!! That's dumb. I use that phrase all the time! hahaha

[zevie]

Clear as mud, lol. (This'll be short, I promise.)

Don't think you had to worry artemis - I think your intent was clear. I absolutely hate absolutes (lol) but, someone clarified before (and I'll just repeat cause I liked it) no one's saying "can't" on these boards, right? It's just opinion and preference, either way. I agree about the tasteful fade to black and pre-sex tension, which is usually hotter than the sex anyway, lol. That has an elegance to it. (I usually just get carried away. Far, FAR away, lol.)

Sometimes, I don't want to read that elegance though. Sex can be real and raw, and when the writer doesn't fade to black through it, it gives it a grittiness that would have been lost otherwise. I think there's an area between PWP and fade out that I really like. The writer takes you through it, but doesn't describe everything. (This doesn't explain the gross details, though. Those are just for fun, lol.) I can only speak about my own stuffs, though, cause I don't really know the thoughts of others (obviously, lol). A lot of the sex that makes the cut for me is just gratuitous - the PWP type. Probably should just be edited out, lol. But, I'm finding that there are other uses for including a sex scene, cause, it's not always just the physical actions and nothing else in reality. There are some issues that can be dealt with, and just a PLETHORA of funnies and relationship development. It's not always the same, right? And people talk during...sometimes. Plus, sexuality is part of personality development (especially around the gang's collective age). I find sometimes that you can let slip details about who they are through sex just like any other activity (like Tim's desire to be in control of himself). And sometimes, one or two dirty details just make it a little bit of scratchy reality. Sorta like if someone in a story really has to pee, lol. A lot of the time it's left out cause it's needless, but sometimes it just adds a little spark of realism. But, really, just a personal preference.

Aside from my sex babbles, I was wondering if anyone out there has a recommendation for a realistic, well-done slash? I've read a couple, but I'd like to read more after having this topic pop up (plus, I need inspiration, lol). Preferably not PWP, just cause those are easy to find, lol, even the good ones.

And, I lied, sorry. It wasn't short. Can't shut me up, lol.

[fosterchild]

Good point, artemis....sex as character development does make a lot of sense.

Zevie....I know a good one for you to read....oh wait...you WROTE it! lol I never stop.

[latch22]

I, um... started one in... December, I think. I got two chapters in and then hit that slump that, well, led to my dwindling presence on FF.net. I had had doubts about it, but a few people asked me to continue, so I think that I will, even if it's a bit strange. It's one of those "what-if?"s. There's no Dallas or Tim, though. Sorry, but my imagination only stretches far enough to make Steve have dreams about Soda and perhaps eventually act on it, whether to be reciprocated or not--I draw the line at Dallas. If you do find yourself bored enough, it's called Change of Plans.

Cheers!

[fosterchild]

I read that one awhile ago, latch. You should continue with it. It's a decent idea.