Socs attacking girls

[Shadow]

I am in complete agreement. It seems as if they are one sided characters with no thoughts beyond group collective action.

I think the Soc males would probably act just like the Greaser males Ponyboy described. They would say dirty things and just work to get the girld flustered and that would be as far as it would go. However, I think that there would be the added bonus of upsetting their greaser boyfriends and provoking trouble for the poorer boys. Seems like something under handed they would do. But saying that, I realize it falls into the Soc stereotype. It is hard to eascape from now that fic writers have imbedded it so far into our preceptions.

As for the Soc rapes, they are highly unbelievable. Even if they had money, who wants the accusation of rape on their records? Their parents would kill them and any girl who drew their attention would probably have a boyfriend who would come after them. It makes for great drama, but still unlikely in the greater picture.
There's no motive. I'm sure it would be much cheaper for them to find a tramp and pay for what would undoubtedly cause a lot of trouble.

As well, it wouldn't be random. I hate stories that make it out to be so.

So I figure not only do the Socs avoid problems, but they save brain cells by not bothering to plot out these sex crimes against girls they most likely find to be nothing more than passing attractions.

[Keira]

My boss has a sub-division of our work in Tulsa and it's NOT a small place by any means. They are something like 2 Mil that live there (if I'm not mistaken) and they gang would be the smallest drop in the bucket, so to speak. Not all the girls would literally know who Soda or Dally were for that very reason. It's reasonable to assume that a good chunk would, but certainly not everyone. They aren't celebrities.

I agree with Shadow too. Boys are boys and there are many types and personalties, lol. Let's face it - if every guy in Tulsa, namely Socs, had the tendency to jump greaser girls... well, let's just get a little realistic here, people - it wouldn't happen. Not to say that it couldn't happen AT ALL, but the chances are so highly unlikely that it's mind boggling to see how many people think it's such a real possibility. If the rape ratio was that high, I can guarentee that people would move away from there, not migrate towards it.

The 60's still held a firm belief that girls were somewhat inferior to males. Sandy being sent away to live with her grandmother is just one example of how girls were shunted in society if they did something remotely wrong - purposefully or not. HOWEVER, that does not mean that boys went around playing on that substandard weakness. If anything, they were somewhat protective of girls (which is yet another overly worked topic, however true it may be) as they even are today. It was a normal society with normal problems.

Leave the rapists to Lifetime television movies, people.

[Ryker]

Definetly my biggest pet peeve.

There are other ways writers can make Socs look like the 'baddies' but rape is the only one they can think of. No girl I know goes walking around in dark street corners and abandoned lots alone in the middle of the night or day for that matter.

I don't know what disturbs me more; that it's mainly the 'teeny boppers' writing all these rape scenes, or that the rape scenes also appear in self-assertion fics. Self assertion fics are mainly to fufil there own fantasies of meeting the gang and all of that junk, but sadly it seems to include rape as well.

Why do all these writers think it's just fine and dandy to tread upon this kind of subject. Experienced or not I wouldn't touch rape with a ten foot pole.

Like Kiks said; leave the Rapists to the experts on telly.

[zevie]

Oh, boy. Am I ever going to get in trouble for this post...

I agree that it's really unlikely that the socs would do a hit-and-run type sexual assault (or any assault) on a passing greaser girl, and that they'd just yell bad things, if that. The socs tend to be completely demonized, because of the book's sympathy with the greasers. They're supposed to be equally hateful of each other so by that logic, anything a soc would do to a greasy girl, a greaser would do to a socy girl...right? It's really more likely that a greaser girl would get sexually harassed/assaulted by a greaser guy. Probably her boyfriend. Or, at a party.

I have to say that while I don't like it when certain subjects are badly written or written about excessively (or both) or unrealistic...etc...sexual assault is common. Not in dark alleys, and not by your enemies either. I could quote stats about how common it is but this is an area that is notorious for having its crimes unreported. And anyway, I'm a little distrustful of stats in general. (On that subject though, there were about 2 million people in Oklahoma in the 60s, and about 200 thousand in Tulsa according to the US census.)

If you're going to write about a girl, greaser or soc, then it's very likely she would come into contact with sexual harassment/assault. Actually, if you're going to write about a guy who's spent any time in jail there is going to be that issue as well. Realistically. Not that you have to write it in. Maybe that's the point and I've missed it...Probably most people should not put it in their writing, unless they are really willing to do a lot of research and put in a LOT of emotional effort into their stories. And I completely agree writing rape is an undertaking that should never, EVER be attempted lightly.

Oh, boy, here goes...I actually wrote in a sex assault scene in one of my fics, although I didn't call it that, and the sympathetic character was the aggressor. It was a little atypical as there was an element of confusion whether or not it was wanted, but if you look at it hard, it wasn't kosher. The response? No one called the character on it, and there was even some backlash against the female victim (who is canon, and not, not, not an author insertion I swear). This is just judging from a couple reviews I got though, so it's not the whole feeling I hope. But, if anyone wants to write in a sex assault scene my (questionable) advice is to realize that with sex assault, chances are it's not going to be reported in the story (if it's mimicking real life), and it's going to seem like acceptable behavior to a lot of people (again mostly talking inside the story). Sex assault will not make your character be seen in any pitied-holy-survivor type light. Usually. Probably most of the guys will say she had it coming (in story). This isn’t meant to demonize all guys, actually, most girls would feel the same way. It is how it is.

Okay, as usual I've typed out a ridiculously and needlessly long response. Sorry. I just mean to say that sex harassment/assault is common enough that it can and maybe should feature in some fics. You just have to do it well and take it seriously. And yeah, maybe it shouldn't be all out rape, especially if you're inexperienced in writing. The point probably was that it's just massively overdone by writers who don't quite have the experience to deal with that subject. But, it's a tough call to make...you never know what a person has experienced, and writing is expressive…

Also, I'm totally not an authority on any of this, and I have minimal knowledge of Tulsa in the 1960s outside of cut and dry stats. Which don't tell you much. In all likelihood, I'm probably just another terrible Sue/Stu author But, there's my two cents. Well, more like fifty.

[zevie]

I actually agreed with everything said in this stream save one – that writing in sex issues should just NOT be done. But, I seem to have misunderstood what the original thought was on this subject, so, I take it back. Apologies.

(Actually, the original thought was all random Soc physical attacks on girls, with which I totally agree. I’ve taken this line slightly off-topic, so I’ll just clear up some stuff and zip it. Again, sorry!)

It actually IS as common as I thought – the stat you quoted was pretty much what I’ve heard. The police records of the number of “forcible rapes” is something like… 0.001 % in 1966 Oklahoma. Very small. One study I read said that 47% of women in BC were sexually assaulted (survey done in 1981 by the Canadian Advisory Council on the Status of Women). Stats Can said one in five. So, no one knows, really. But, this is Tulsa 1966 anyway. In terms of the “every girl” thing, I was thinking more harassment, less rape, and that’s purely based on anecdotal evidence. I was not in Tulsa in 1966, so it could have been very different from what I see now anyway. But, I still maintain my guy in jail thing – not all guys as victims, but they’d definitely know a thing or two about it. But, again this is second-hand, modern day and unofficial info.

All the stuff about it being common and reactions etc. in my last post was not actually meant to encourage people to write these things, because, as you’ve all said, it’s really easy to do it in an inaccessible or just unbelievable way. It’s more if there are people out there reading here who want to write it in. And since I’ve said that, I better also say that the first step to writing in sex assault is to know why you want to write it in – and there are plenty of reasons NOT to (as seen in this line of posts), so it had better be a good one. The main thing to take from my last post was that the reaction of everyone pitying and comforting the girl is not really realistic (in my view). Probably no one will stick up for the girl, as the aggressor was probably her boyfriend (as said in a number of above posts). So, trying to get sympathy for your character is not a good reason.

Anyway. This was again too long. Just meant to clear up what I wrote before.

And I DO totally agree with the band of faceless evil Soc syndrome.

[Keira]

You have nothing to apologize over - you've helped to spread new light on the topic, which is nice.

As I was reading the last few posts I had a few things come to mind about random attacks etc...

While true that a great deal of us were not around in '66, in Oklahoma or Tulsa at that, it's safe to say that society hasn't changed drastically since then. Women ARE viewed more equally, however, it's not though Oklahoman's were submerged in some third world country in a particular mindset that it was okay to lash out and attack women for being inferior. There's nowhere you can go these days that isn't dangerous to one degree or another.

However, I think we sometimes forget that Socs were normal people too. They just happened to be rich and privileged. People like to feed on the feelings of our greaser boys and channel all their fanfic-writing-plotline-hate towards the same source. But like Mars said, even our boys didn't go there, though they may have been angered enough to do so. So, while it is true that rape wasn't the most common of sexual assault, I still think it's safe to bet on the fact that it wasn't a whole lot different back then, than it is today.

I too once wrote a scene similar to things described here, though it involved a boyfriend from the hood. I don't presume to judge what crosses what lines, though I do know that what I wrote was cliche no matter how you looked at it.

Many authors begin with a cliche in mind, true. However, the test of true skill is whether or not you can change what began as a cliche, into a realistic, intriquing, and even awe-inspiring story that makes you say, "Wow. That was GOOD. ... And not even GOOD - it was phenominal!" And this holds true for Soc attacks. I *know* there are good stories out there that include such things.

This reply is all over the place, but one more point I wanted make was the fact that a while the Soc's have attacked greaser boys, and we haven't seen them attack greaser girls, we HAVE heard of greaser boys doing those things. It's more likely that in this particular fandom, a greaser, or hood like the boys in Shepard's gang, or the Brumbly Boys, or River Kings, Tiber Street Tigers, etc... would be a more likely candidate to attack a girl.

[zevie]

Whew! I’m glad I’m not offending people. This is quite a collection of impressive (and, um, intimidating) writers you’ve got here and, well, my big mouth tends to get me in trouble. Or my overzealous typing fingers.

I think you’re right on about the Shepard gang, Brumley etc. being more likely to attack than the Socs. (Sorry Tim.) It is hard to picture the Socs’ modern day equivalents getting so violent…like I think Shadow said earlier, there’s no motive. The hood gangs have all that rage. The Curtis “gang” too, I think is a little tamer all around (except for Dallas)…didn’t Ponyboy say something about Dallas and the downtown outfits being hoods and slightly different than the Curtis gang who were just greasers? I can’t remember exactly where…

That thing about the cliché rang so true. Some of the best fics I’ve read I started into completely sceptical of the plot or the topic, but a couple chapters in I’ve fallen in love with the writer’s style or the plot twists or the characterisation.

Heh, thanks for letting me butt in again. This forum really was a great idea

[latch22]

I'm kind of sick of stories where Socs attack greasers as revenge for Bob. It was mentioned that a lot of them would back-stab, didn't really have real friends, were aloof, et cetera. Why would any Soc that sees one of the gang walking down the street (besides the dubious matter of any sort of cognitive recognition) jump them out of revenge? In fanfiction, they seem to be as much a collective as the greasers, if not more so.

That was off-topic.

More to the point, I think a greaser would be much more likely to screw with a girl, e.g, shake her up a bit, embarrass her. The Socs were supposedly brought up proper, and their status in society is reflective of that. And, truthfully, the greasers were not at all the saints they are frequently depicted as, and, again, it varies between people. I'm not saying that any old greaser was likely to all-out rape someone, or that there weren't some who found it immoral to even pressure someone (let it never be said that the book isn't dealing with several brash, hormonal, teenage guys), but it is more likely that, if something such as that were to occur, a greaser (hood, I should say, but I'll stick with greaser regardless) would be the perpetrator. They seemed to be a little rougher around girls, I think. There's a lot to do with values, mindset, and upbringing--which includes peers.

Besides that (forgetting for a moment, of course, that I don't trust statistics), it is also more likely that, if a sexual assault (and it wouldn't even have to be an all-out rape, really) occurred, the victim would know the assailant. Out of all of the sexual assaults that are actually reported, I'm fairly certain that most of them were not back-alley ordeals--or, as in most stories, in broad daylight in the middle of the street, as if a Soc has nothing better to do than terrorize anyone they feel like or rape a random girl off of the street into martyr status.

And on that, I don't think that most reactions are realistic, and that's another reason that it should be avoided by those unprepared to fully deal with the issue. In most of those stories, a major plot point is the guys finding out. Once they do learn of the experience, it's consuming of their consciences and they are morally affronted as human beings. They become sensitive. They simply *must* take care of whoever has been wronged, and beat to a senseless, bloody pulp whoever did the wronging. (Is wronging a word? I'm going to use it anyway.)

I'm sure that there were some Socs who felt enough of a sense of power from humiliating someone that they resorted to girls, but isn't it more likely that they would consider a greaser girl dirty and beneath them, and would therefore not wish to soil themselves by touching such filth?

In conclusion, it is simply the most tragic thing that a bad writer can think of, a "quick fix," if you will, and so they must utilize it for "character development," a.k.a. getting the object of the Sue's affection to not only feel bad for her, but admit that her life has been much worse than his, and she is to be downright pitied and yet worshipped for her strength--because, of course, she is just a pillar of *that*.

Cheers, I think...

[texaskid]

this topic did bring up a few good points but some bad ones. Rape even back in the sixties would occur more than we think it did and more than the statistics would say because like today few females actually report it. It's one of those things that gets hushed up like pregnancy before marriage. Girls would actually like to think who's going to believe me if I do report it. I can see a soc or even a greaser guy using it as a threat to torment the girl but you also need to be prepared to have the girl spend time thinking about it and not just for like five minutes or a day either I mean like a week. It would be something that would bother her a lot even if she can play it off to the outside world like it didn't bother her.
Sorry if this didn't make much sense.

[Tensleep]

I'll jump on the boat on this one. Don't know how it escaped my attention way back when, but hey.

Everyone has a good point, but I'm going to mesh them into something soft and squishy and undoubtedly stupid as hell, but hey.

I do agree that a lot of the Soc raping girls stories have unbelievable plots. This is not because it would never happen (sorry Shadow), but because Texaskid made a good point. These girls probably wouldn't come forward. It probably did hapen on both sides, but it wasn' a celebrated festival, gang bang situation.

So, what I fnd so unbelievable about them is that they ALWAYS happen to someone close to the gang. Not "Did you hear about that girl at school?" or something. Then it turns the story into this huge drama, especially when it's told from this sister or girlfriend's POV. Yes, rape does happen, but it does not happen to every girl to get close to the boys. I just got sick of reading the repeated plot over and over again, even though I get that this makes the plot more engaging. Our section over at ff.net is going a little Post-Modernist in that respect. (Sorry, just took an English test on that)

Anyways, I guess I am totally high on cough medicine, so you can ignore me.