Some Day....

[Tensleep]

Reading through some posts today I came to the conclusion that there are a lot of Steve lovers in this crowd. He's a very interesting character to write because he is so intricate and Ponyboy left us a lot for interpretation.

So I want to know what you all think on this random thought of mine...

Do you think that in time Steve and Ponyboy could have found some common ground and actually gotten along or do you think that those childhood prejudices would have continued on?

I look forward to reading your thoughts.

See ya in the funny papers!!!

Tens

[latch22]

I think that, one, this was a good post, and two, it's kind of relative. For one thing, we've got Soda--and Soda is part of the reason that Steve feels a certain... Steve-ness toward Ponyboy. He's a bit of a separating force between the two.

But without Soda, I think that they would see each other in a different light. They're too different to really be buddy-buddy, but they share similar experiences and common ground, having grown up together and come from the same place. There's a definite loyalty present. (And perhaps a certain protectiveness if Soda were out of the picture. Oh, my--it sounds like I'm out to get the poor guy. Well, that's just not true--I'm only speculating. Lol.)

But with Soda, they wouldn't have much of a reason to be friends. They'd see each other, sure, and I think that they would eventually grow out of the animosity they felt toward each other--which may have been somewhat fueled by the environment in which they lived--but that it would really give way to... indifference. Not entirely, but a take-it-or-leave-it attitude.

In the end, though, they're both very different people brought together by situation and mutual connections. I doubt they would have given each other the time of day without Soda being involved, but I do think that, because he was, they would settle into a certain friendliness... just not a tell-all relationship where they trust each other with their lives.

I repeated myself, didn't I? Oh, well--no time to correct that. Must be off, now.

Cheers!

[Tensleep]

Great thoughts, Mars. I agree with you fully. If something were to happen to Sodapop they would probably be the best person for each other to lean on.

[Rock]

I definitely agree with Mars and Tens. My first thought was that they could be better friends if something like the death of a dear brother and friend brought them closer together. Grief does funny things sometimes.

Also, in my own experience (thanks to a dear older brother of mine) as you get older you find ways to be closer to those around you. Remember that in the book, Pony is fourteen. He doesn't understand a lot of whats really going on. As he matures, there is a great possibility that he would see Steve in a different light. And if not, that he would at least not want to have that kind of animosity for his brothers best friend. On the same point, Steve has some growing up to do as well. There is also the possibility that Steve would go to Vietnam. This could mean him changing a great deal if he returns, for better or worse. That would have some effect on him and Pony's relationship in the future book.

In short, there are so many variables we wont ever know. But I would think that it would be most likely that they at least would put their differences aside and be more friendly as they got older and more mature.


Rock

[Keira]

I'm going to be the Devil's advocate on this one.

I agree with a lot of points that were brought up, however, I think most people are wanting to see a happy ending as opposed to a realistic ending. Not to say that Steve and Pony couldn't come to a mutual understanding after the war, but I think a lot of people might be forgetting that Steve changes a lot with the war, as well as coming out one-less best friend.

I don't remember exactly where SE said this, but we do know that Steve comes back addicted to drugs, and most likely highly depressed and somewhat psycho, as a lot of those soldiers returned. He's always had a bitter streak and a tendency to be hostile towards those he does not agree with. Pony fits into that category; at least at the age of 14.

Ponyboy is a sophisticated young man with high set goals for himself. He becomes a respected author, and makes something of himself. He's seemingly open to people from all walks of life, regardless of where his current social status may lie. For that reason alone we should think he'd be welcoming Steve back with open arms. But that most likely wouldn't be so.

There is a year between the ending of the book and Steve and Soda leaving for war. I hard it find to believe that Steve and Pony come to any closer of an understanding during that time. Pony would only be an annoying 15 year old punk who's still "tagging-along" and Steve is still that bitter prick who looks down on Pony (As they would each see it, of course).

As I see it, Steve would come back from the war and he and the remaining Curtis brothers would come together in momentary grief and at that time PROBABLY come to an understanding. But it wouldn't last long. With Soda gone, what has Steve got to stick around for? He never liked Pony and he was always intimidated and frightened by Darry. Dallas and Johnny are long gone and Two-Bit is either at war or ... something (I don't believe we know what becomes of him)... and even if he was around, I don't know that the New Steve would care too much to stick around for him.

I think that Steve changes too much to have anything to stick around for. So even if they did come to an understanding, the relationship thereafter would be short lived. Yes, they did grow up together, but no - they were never friends and can easily do without each other. Sad, I know.

[zevie]

Yeah, people tend to drift apart from their childhood friends when they start to have new experiences without them... Steve comes back from the war even more embittered and angry - is that what S.E. writes about him? I can see Steve coming back after the war and only wanting to hang around other people who have shared in that experience. If he came back and Soda were still alive, he'd probably be a reason for Steve to get on with his life (as much as anyone who has been in a war can) - sort of bring him out of the war mind-set and help him see the other aspects of life. But, besides Soda, who is Steve really close to? Since it's Pony's POV we don't really know for sure (as always, lol). But, given Steve's apparent jealousy towards Ponyboy and his protectiveness towards the time he and Soda share, he probably didn't have a lot of other support in his life. So, I think he'd end up in a bar somewhere, drinking and telling war-stories with other vets and not having a reason to do much else. War friggin sucks.

[Keira]

I don't know that he'd necessarily tell war stories - Viet Nam wasn't exactly worthy of bragging or reliving. A good amount of them tried to drown out their memories in alcohol and drugs, not drinking casually and trying to dig up good memories. It was a pretty painful war.

I never thought of Steve as being jealous of Pony and protective of his time with Soda, but it makes great sense. The lack of Soda in his life would drive him to find a replacement, and I just can't see Pony taking that place.

Perhaps they stay distant friends/aquaintances the remainder of their lives, but I don't see them inviting each other to the family BBQ's and Christmas Eve dinner.

[zevie]

I didn't think *any* war stories were casual!! Who has good memories from war? Any war, not just Vietnam. No, I meant commiserating, not even necessarily with a lot of words, because if he were with a bunch of people who'd been there they would already know. I didn't know "war stories" had that connotation. The thing is, I don't know if Steve would try and forget everything - maybe the specific things he would. But, I kinda have this image of him getting hung up on the war, of it stopping him from living his life. He such a passionate guy, I think he'd get caught up in his rage from the war. I don't know anything first-hand of war, much less Vietnam; this is just my idea of the way he'd react to something traumatic.

[Rock]

zevie said:

I didn't think *any* war stories were casual!! Who has good memories from war? Any war, not just Vietnam. No, I meant commiserating, not even necessarily with a lot of words, because if he were with a bunch of people who'd been there they would already know. I didn't know "war stories" had that connotation.

Zevie - I don't know that "war stories" always held this kind of connotation, but it sure does now. In Vietnam, the public was very against the war, the veterans had no where to go when they came back. Right now, everyone is hearing about the War in Iraq, we have media all over covering this war, and in the past that was not so much the case. War hasn't been talked about historically, not like it is now. In any case, most guys who go to war say very little to anyone on it, even between themselves. Does that make sense? I could be wrong - but thats just my view on it.

Anyway, aside from that - on to Steve!

I think i heard somewhere that he was addicted - but i totally forgot! Thanks for the reminder, keira.

So, that changes things in my mind. I used to work with a few vets from Vietnam. They were still in rehab for addictions started during their active duty in Vietnam. These men went through so much. Some of their stories were so heart breaking, and they were so young when they were thrown into a war the US public did not support. Can you imagine?

Steve would come back a ravaged man. He has lived a hard life, and the war doesn't help. When he finds something to ease his pain, he clings to it. Steve wouldn't go on to get over things, or to keep his old life. Steve would be bound to a very different path. He feels rejected, even by those he once rallied with. He has so much to overcome when he gets home, he isn't even thinking of his old friends.

I can see an understanding between Pony and Steve, but thats it. I don't know that Pony would ever understand the things that Steve went through and who he became, and I don't think that Steve would care who Pony became.


Does this even make sense? Well, Ive done the best I can for today.

Rock

[Tensleep]

Makes perfect sense, Alli.

I think I should clarify my own answer. I don't think they would ever be best friends because there is no way with their personalities that that would work. But I can see that common ground where they would be civil to each other and even get along better than they would have with Soda in the middle. They wouldn't be making lunch dates and they wouldn't be going out drinking together, but when they got together as a group I could see Steve seeing a bit of Soda in his kid brother and actually talking to him instead of at him.

As for Vietnam...that is an interesting variable. In my grand scheme of things I have that all worked out, but in reality...it is a valid point. Steve has no real family to support him after he comes back. It's likely he would continue drinking and shooting up and working himself into a deeper hole until he ended up on the streets for a while and made the decision to get clean. He's not a weak character, with the proper support he could manage it. But it would be a fight all the way. I think that while he was in that rut he and Pony could never see eye to eye.

See ya in the funny papers!!!

Tens

[Nittanylizard]

First off, what I recall of Ms. Hinton's view of Steve's future - he goes to Vietnam and returns a drug addict. He gets married and divorced twice, and eventually becomes a drug counselor.

Going with that scenario, I imagined that Steve's drug addiction began because it was so much easier to get the stuff over there, rather than that he necessarily had a horrible experience. I'm not sure what the number is, but it was somewhere under 10 percent of soldiers during the Vietnam War who were even involved in combat situations on a regular basis.

In one of the versions in my head, Ponyboy hates Steve when he's a kid, and Steve maybe doesn't even register that Pony even has an opinion about him. But once they grow up, they have a common past, so they are friendly to each other when they run across each other, but don't seek each other out to get together or anything.

In one of the other versions in my head (this is why I write fanfic and do awful on multiple choice tests, lol, I just can't see only one way) Steve starts to accept Ponyboy as he gets older and can relate to them more, and they continue to be friends throughout adulthood. I guess what I'm saying is that Ponyboy disliked Steve because of the way Steve treated him, but if Steve were nicer to him as he grew older, Pony would have no reason to hold a grudge based on things from when he was 13 or 14. He might even understand by the time he's 16 or 17 the way Steve reacted to him.

Now, both of these versions also have slight alterations when you consider whether or not Soda dies, and when, etc. Good question. I like thinking .

Liz

[Keira]

Thank you for bring up those other points, Liz. I couldn't remember everything that had been said about Steve's future, nor could I find the time to look it up.

I never did elaborate about what I think they'd be like as adults (friendship-wise) other than that they most likely wouldn't be hanging out or even getting together for BBQ's - not to say that they couldn't be friendly and invite each other for old-times sake.

But basically my main point is that when Steve returns from the war - those first few months are so crucial to what path he takes, and I just can't see him choosing to stick around the places that refresh painful memories of his childhood/friends, or with people that he never did quite relate to.

I think that we sometimes tend to forget that yes, the Curtis brothers have one H-E-L-L of a year, followed by the death of Soda just a couple of years later... but the rest of the gang are affected by everything as well. They may not have lost their own parents at that time, but a great deal of them lost the people they probably WISHED were their parents (and when thinking of the parents that some of them had, that's not all that far-fetched of an idea, or desire) as well as lose two close friends, and then Soda later on. It would only be natural to want to put distance between those memories and the current situations.

[zevie]

Liz - thanks for the info...by the way, I think I've read a bit about their futures somewhere, but is there a specific article or something where this all is? Or, is it compiled from various sources?

Under ten percent? Really?! Wow... I'd pretty much figured the drugs were a coping mechanism for experiences during war, but that definitely turns things around. Heh, should probably revise my whole take on Steve now, especially given the info from S.E. herself. My bad. (This is why research is good. Four years of Canadian history in school...nothing about Vietnam.)

Keira - Really interesting! Never thought about it that way... I always figured if you're close to someone you'd rely on them in time's of need, but that's only one reaction, I guess. I also thought Steve was closest (in character) to Dallas, and he strikes me as the type to retreat and lick his wounds when hurt rather than open up, heh. It's weird...I really agree with that, but I can also see him meeting a slightly happier ending, re the gang (what's left of it). I think it could (and maybe should?) be spun either way.

[queenjaneapprxmtly]

Eh, I'm no good at math, but I'm not too sure about that under ten percent thing. And, I'm not trying to brag here, but I know a lot about the Vietnam War (seriously, you could ask me anything), and of the million odd soldiers who fought from the time they started sending troops over in early 1965 to the final pullout in 1973, it seems to me that more than half of them would have been involved in combat all the time through the years. I mean even when nothing was going on, that was still considered combat.

I don't know, it just doesn't sound right to me.

But like I said, I'm no good at math. :p

[zevie]

Lol, I *just* posted on this thread but I had a thought...

There's this thing on another board (I can't remember where, lol, sorry) that's a "Realism Q&A" where you can ask questions about what goes on in *real life* in certain situations, places, times, etc. and anyone who knows answers them... would that be redundant, lol, since this whole board is basically questions... But, maybe like a realism from the 60s section rather than character stuff? To just share our respective research, lol. Like if you have Vietnam questions, QJ could answer, or if you need to learn to swear in French, Tens could hook you up...

Just a thought...heh...