Gang-ness

[zevie]

Sweet! Very glad this is here. ;D Gonna get the ball rolling, then!

So, Tens, since you offered, I have ridiculous amounts of brain-crashes whenever I try to write Tim's gang. If it, um, doesn't get you in trouble or nothing... What exactly is the purpose of a gang? I mean, I know what the reasons for having a gang might be, like brotherhood and support and just something to do (correct me if I'm wrong here). But, once you've established the gang, what do you do? Besides fighting other gangs. Is Tim spending his days trying to get money? Connections? What for? And how?

Heh, that was a lot of questions, but I've been reading a bunch of good gang fics recently, so hopefully one or two, etc, of you guys can help me out!

At this point, I have trouble motivating him to do anything but sit in a corner sipping beer and basically, messing up his gang completely cause *I* don't know what I'm doing. So absolutely any info would be great. Help save Timmy from my pen. Please?

[Tensleep]

Thanks for starting the ball rolling Zevie!

The purpose of a gang...Let's see. A gang can be many things: security, brotherhood, something to do, a way to make a fast buck, somewhere to belong, a way to rebel...In my personal experience it was a way to keep our heads above water, but Tim was the topic of the day.

The Shepard gang exists for purely selfish reasons. For Tim it was more about control than finding brotherhood and forging his own little family. He didn't need another family or any more brothers. He needed something in his life to take charge of that wouldn't turn around and hurt him the way his family obviously did somewhere along the way. He found his somewhere to belong, even if he knows it can't end anywhere good. At least hes controlling his life and where it leads is based on his own decisions.

As well, I think there's a bit of a need to be needed, for lack of a better word. To have these boys following him like he's worth something is where he gets a bit of his confidence. He has more of a pack mentality than some of the other greasers. That's probably why his gang is more disciplined and structured than the gang of friends Ponyboy belongs to.

A few things I keep in mind while writing Tim are that he is a leader and he thinks things through. That's probably one of the biggest pulls for why he runs the gang. Not to say he isn't the meanest sonofa- in that gang, but that's just not enough in my figuring. Tim earned his place.

But, once you've established the gang, what do you do? Besides fighting other gangs. Is Tim spending his days trying to get money? Connections? What for? And how?

Gee Zevie...lots of questions...

Well, once you've established your gang, you work to keep it afloat. You have your rival gangs that you will fight with on occasion and you now have a chunk of the city you can't wander into again without starting a fight. But you're right. There's more to it.

Trying to get money - a lot of writers figure Tim traffics drugs. I think this is believable enough because of the times. What one has to keep in mind was that back in the 60s it wasn't as big a deal as it is in the here and now until you get into the hard drugs. If you ask me, not much excitement, but I don't suppose there was a gun demand at the time in Tulsa. So Tim could be making easy money, especially off regulars stuck in that neighborhood. Theft, resale, and gambling are also profitable, but theft attracts the cops and resale can get you thrown away for years...not fun. But like I said, he has to do something and keep his boys who aren't in school busy. having them traffic is an easy solution.

Connections are also important. If you make the right ones, you have someone to keep an eye on your enemies. You don't want them watching your back because you don't trust them enough unless they're a blood pact gang with your gang which gets complicated. But Tim would spend a good chunk of his time keeping up connections. He'd make appearances, alliances, customers, connections to other customers and have a grape vine on everything that was going down. In short, connections are good for keeping on top of things or for a rainy day or a big fight...Keep in mind this is all carefully balanced. Offend one and you can have three come down on you. So there would be many parties and many deals in Tim's life. Makes for an exciting pull, but it would most likely make him seem older than he is. Gotta love responsibility.

In short Zev, remind him that if he doesn't get off his butt, put his beer down and start running things there might not be anything left to run. He needs to be the boss as much as those guys need to be bossed around.

Hope this helped somewhat!

See ya in the funny papers!!!

Tens

[zevie]

Whoa. Lotta info. Thanks!

I started writing Tim and halfway through realised that I had to mention his gang at some point. Cue brain freeze, heh. This helps a lot!!

[fairlane]

I always get a little stuck on exactly how criminally active Tim's gang would be. They are all mid-late teens and based on Pony's description of the rumble in the book it is not big - say 8-10 members.

I imagine they would commit a lot of violent crime and dishonesty type offences - stealing etc. Drug dealing is also a likely option. Large scale smuggling or manufactering of drugs seems unlikely, I don't see teenagers (even Tim) having that level of resources and organisation.

Realistically they are probably more a recruiting ground for older and established gangs, selling drugs for them, committing crimes to order etc. Not that I ever write it like that lol.

I would be interested to see what others think though, obviously I'm coming at it as someone who doesn't even live in the states. Maybe teenage gangs over there are something more than what they are here (NZ).

[Tensleep]

Fairlane has a point. They wouldn't be large scale on the drugs, probably dealing for an independent or a larger gang. They get their cut and life goes on. Stealing, like I said, is viable, but resale is the problem. Unless they were selling outside the city, there would be a lot of hassle with the fuzz.

A recruitment ground...interesting that that would be brought up. It's probably true. I don't ever consider it because it's a fate I would rather they never have. Up here our gangs are pretty well established. For us, the next step up was to go three blocks east and two north were the Hell's Angels had their club house - sometimes I wonder whether I should be bothered that they had their club house so close to home... Anyways, initiation is murder. I know the gangs there wouldn't be so hard core, but man...not a nice thought.

See ya in the funny papers!!!

Tens

[zevie]

Gangs well established here as well. The Chinese gangs are very strong here, but I doubt that existed in Tulsa in the sixties, heh. I only know about gangs from the very outside (which is why I have trouble writing from the *inside* lol) but I've been told that the closer you live to an HA house, the safer you are, as no one would want to draw attention to the area by doing anything shifty nearby. A bit of scrambly logic, heh, but it makes sense to me... I dunno how true that is? Initiation...hardcore. I never thought of Tim's gang really getting into that - in fact, the only one (besides, obviously, Johnny and Pony) who I saw with any experience would be Dallas, from that New York comment he makes after Johnny offs the Soc.

[Tensleep]

You know, that's why I have mixed feelings about them. No one makes trouble because of them, but they're still a dangerous gang. I can see how it wouldn't make much sense. Think of it this way. You're in a classroom and the teacher assigns you to the desk right beside hers. Are you more likely to start something right close to it or is the guy in the back row going to be the one in detention?

Same thing with the Angels. If you're going to start trouble close to them where they could be implicated then you are going to get it good before they get in trouble. Lots of fun, let me tell you.

See ya in the funny papers!!!

Tens

[fairlane]

We also have chapters of the Hells Angels here. They are very low profile, I don't know anything about them. I have heard they only recruit from within the prison system.

Someome I know prospected for a gang here and it took him about 2 years I think before he was a member. I don't know exactly what he had to do - it wasn't murder though.

Apparantly its also common for prospects to take the fall for crimes committed by members.

[Tensleep]

Yeah, they're a hard gang to get into because a lot of what they do is under the radar. Like Mars said, money laundering, fraud, hard core drugs and the lot. You'd think that would bring more attention to them, but hey. White collar crime costs society so much more than blue collar, and yet, blue is what's persecuted more thoroughly. Makes you wonder.

Here we don't have so many ethnic gangs. We had a group of Spics we liked to hang out with, and before you tut me for calling them racist names they actually went by The Spics. The Tigers were mostly Black and the East Village is all East Indians. I don't think they've figured out the whole gang thing. They just go around shooting everybody.
The rest are home grown mixed with whatever guys end up in them. Probably has something to do with being a Prairie province with few immigrants. Or the fact the PC's reign high here. The one thing I really notice is the lack of gals in gangs, even now a days. Here I knew three - two of which were major....rhymes with twitches. Oh well. Probably what it takes for a lot of those girls to make it in that world.

See ya in the funny papers!!!

Tens

[BlindedxxFalcon]

I agree with Zevie.

[kdlaxgoalie]

Is it possible that Tim's gang could be into bootlegging? Not like the twenties, but into getting stronger, illeagal stuff like moonshine from rual areas into the city? That could explain how Dally knew the train schedual to Windrixville (SP?), he could have learned it one time when Tim need help getting a shipment from that quiet little hick town. Just a thought.

[Nittanylizard]

I'd think that would work, and yeah, it could explain how Dally would know the freight train schedule. Is it something you're working into a fic? I think it's a good idea.

[kdlaxgoalie]

It's not so much something I'm working into a fic as something I'm working into the character. I haven't gotten to the fic part yet, I'm still on background, but yeah I figure that he might not even be into drugs.

At that point in time the main users of drugs were hippies, right? And greasers hated hippies, they jumped them even. So why would they do anything for the hippies? Sure in TWTTIN Mark is selling to hippies, but Mark isn't a greaser he's middle class. So it doesn't make sense to me for Tim to be into drugs since that would be doing something with hippies.

The whole greasers hating hippies thing is probably just the new form of the socs-greaser wars and an example of the Doves-Hawks conflict. Hippies were mainly college kids and college drop outs, with the exception of the random ones like M&M. They were the ones who could get college deferments when drafted, who could afford to go to college begin with, who could afford drugs, and who could be anti-war (Doves) without being hated by the neighbors whose son was over there since the neighbors son would probably have been a college deferment kid like them. Greasers on the other hand were the blue collared working class who couldn't get deferments, who were the ones who if you weren't in Vietnam yourself your neighbor probably was. Politically greasers were probably more conservative, the working class usually is, so the would probably been in support of the war (Hawks) if for no other reason besides the fact that they knew people who were over there fighting.

Sorry about that my US History class just covered Vietnam last week.... Sooooo back to the main topic.... Mr. Timothy Shepard and Co. probably would not have been into drugs because of the political atmosphere of the time.

[astiosis]

I'm very, very glad that Zevie asked this, Tim and Curly's characters have always interested me but my lack of sufficient information seriously keep me from writing anything about them...

But I knew that Tensleep is definitely right about the purpose. To me, what makes a 'gang' so hard to write about is that their purposes, actions, deals, ways to make money are all fairly shady and vary to such a large extent. However, this is Tim and Curly we're talking about so that at least narrows things quite a bit for us. Not so sure about the whole drug scene but it's a possibility, theft seems a bit more likely for me - but I don't know how it'll work out so well.