Writing in Third Person

[Rock]

Okay, I have NO idea if this fits in here, but I figured it would fit BEST here. So who cares, right?

Anyway, on with it.

Recently I have been reading a lot of books written in third person. This brought me to a point of curiosity, and I began to explore the possibilities a third person POV can offer to a writer. For example, one can change POVs every chapter if he/she wanted/needed to.

After reading. re-reading, learning, and all that good stuff, I wanted to write in third person as well. So I set out on an adventure to do so. Lets just say, its not going as well as I had hoped. I need help....or I will never get this story finished!

Have any of you had experience with a third person POV?

I think this is an interesting topic, and its not talked about enough in fan fiction (especially in Outsiders fan fiction, I think that writers tend to emulate SE Hinton in her first person POV style.)

Thanks All!

Rock


Oh - and I know that my grammar is terrible in this post...but thats just my way! Sorry!

[latch22]

I can't remember any of it, but, before I read The Outsiders, I had an entire list of reasons why I really disliked first person. I also can't remember if it was that I disliked writing or reading it, but I suspect that it was both in most cases. (I had before, although I was never a fan most of the time.) I think that I thought it was just a bad writing style or something...

I wrote almost exclusively in third person until I read The Outsiders. It wasn't that I didn't already know the pros and cons of each--there are plenty--and how to be careful regarding both; I just plain old didn't like it.

Obviously, now I do.

But I do think that most fics read better in the format in which they were originally written. For example, most Outsiders fics seem to be better in first person, and yet Harry Potter fics (which I admit that I don't read, but have read a few before) work better in third person. And other such devices, you know.

It also keeps a certain element similar to the book, and therefore more familiar, I think.

Another theory, if I may again use Harry Potter as an example, is that, in HP, the language is more sophisticated, and also seems to warrant an outside perspective.

In The Outsiders, we're used to being closer to the characters and having an objective* view, and the very narrative is simpler. It's just a fourteen-year-old boy's thoughts.

I do think a lot about POV, though. And sometimes, you have to decide which would work better in a particular story. Sometimes you just begin to write, though, and it comes out however.

But I don't advocate switching between. I think that, unless it's a particular style that you're going for that warrants such an approach and you're careful regarding structure, you should stick with whatever you originally chose. Except third person omniscient, 'cause that's the point...

Cheers!

[zevie]

Wow, great topic.

I love to write in third person. I like being able to focus on different characters, and I like poking fun at the characters while they are being serious, which is a lot harder to do in first person.

First person I find difficult, especially in fanfiction because everyone already knows the characters and has an opinion on what they sound like. Some of the characters I can't picture narrating at all, or if they do, their vocabularies and use of devices would be so limited it'd be a huge challenge to not be boring. Not because they're idiots, but because they just don't think descriptively.

I have to confess something though...

Other than the really obvious meanings, I'm still not really sure what the difference is between third person omniscient and third person limited...as in how to put it in practice. I know what the theory would be, I think. My formal school training covered basic first and third person (and I think passive - is that the one you use in essays?). I actually only discovered the existance of second person and limited/omniscent from FFN, heh. (Gotta love public school.)

[latch22]

You probably already know some of this, but I'll just write out the entire thing anyway:

First person: Yeah, you're inside of the character's head. You see and experience through them. The most frequently used word will most definitely be 'I'.

Second person: Best used in a Choose Your Own Adventure story, and hopefully *only* used there. It's difficult, it's confusing, and I, personally, find it to be a major turn-off in the long run. It's when you're putting the *reader* into the narrative. 'I' and 'he/she/they' become 'you.'

Third person (strictly limited): You're using words such as he/she/they, as opposed to I, but you're mostly experiencing what the character experiences regardless, with just a slightly detached feel. You're still with one character, though--it's just not them narrating. It gives you some leverage to be a bit more descriptive and to point out things that you would like noticed but don't think that the character would notice--or if it's a major point that they don't. Actually, it's a lot more than that, but it's late and right now I don't feel like making up an entire list. Lol. Perhaps another time. But it fluctuates anyway, over time and between writers, so the pros, cons, and guidelines are endless.

Now, with third person limited omniscient and third person omniscient, it gets a little tricky.

With third person limited omniscient, I believe, you generally keep the perspective from one character for a time, or to a point, or possibly just a small few, but may switch later on.

With third person omniscient, anyone can think or feel anything and it will be included within the narrative. I think that it is probably the most commonly used narrative, on account of its less strict nature and relative ease of use--and it's probably popular among beginners, now that I think about it. A major concern with it, however, is that one does not get to come to know any specific character. (I sort of disagree with that, but I can't speak for everything.)

I always say, though, write however you think the story will work. Any point of view, any tense (which, when it's *really* broken down beyond present, past, and future, gets so incredibly complicated...), any style, and any writing method. Whatever gets it done and seems right.

Yes, I think that the passive voice is used in essays... I think.

Hope I helped (and explained that correctly... My schools never really focused on English, either), and cheers!

[zevie]

That's really helpful - thanks guys!

So, I think I'll have to modify my answer to Rock's original question...

I think I tend to use 3rd person omniscient a lot...but it might be a cross between 3rd person omniscient and limited omniscient. Usually. I don't know. I think I understand what each of the views are now, but I don't know what I've been doing. Which is typical sentiment for me, though.

P.S. Mars, I can't remember if I already said it, but I liked your transitioning POV thing in Middle Ground. It was arty. And it made for some excellent jokes, all in the spirit of Two-Bit-ness.

[zevie]

It's good to know, though, even if most people won't catch it.

For a lot of that fic, I jump between the two of them... I think probably I'm aiming at a third person limited from both views (or more than both...actually, I thought you could jump to anyone if you give a break in between, heh, my bad) but, it's getting pretty messy, lol.

Wow, this POV thing has completely spun me.

I have another question and I'm so sorry Rock for dragging this POV thing awry...

When you use third person limited and have more than one view, how much do you separate between the views? Is it just a paragraph (heh, which is what I think I've mostly done...dun dun dun) or a page break line thing (I don't know what they're called) or a whole chapter? Or is that a subjective call?

[Nittanylizard]

Ooh, good topic, Rock.

Like Mars said, third person limited gets into one person's head for an entire scene, chapter, or book (a "scene" being a section within a chapter that's separated by a break; in a book, they use a double space to separate scenes).

Third person limited is very similar to first (and this is where I think a lot of writers, me included, have to pay attention and not switch POV) in that the POV character cannot know what anybody else is thinking or feeling. He can guess, but doesn't know any more than he would if it were in first person, so the reader can't know either.

Here are two excellent blog posts about POV. The blogger is a novelist and scriptwriter who currently writes for the TV show "House". Others on this forum *coughChristinecough* might be interested to know she's also been on the writing staff for "Numbers":

tightropegirl.livejournal.com/14092.html
tightropegirl.livejournal.com/14528.html

I think this one sentence (from the first link above) is great for describing how some readers get sucked in by Ponyboy's first person POV and not realize it, and then try to write a story either in third person, or from somebody else's POV, that gives what really was Pony's perspective -
"The risk to the author is that some readers may not pick up that the protagonist's view of his reality is inaccurate, or to what degree he's fooling himself -- and whether, on some level, he knows it and is avoiding opening that closet door."

She goes on to say, "There are plenty of enchanting ripples to get lost in when you play the unreliable-narrator game. As a reader, it's a lovely jolt when you understand the truth, because it's perfect double vision; you are the character, participating with him or her in every thought, but a part of you can still stand aside and see the distortions even while you feel where they come from."

I think an excellent (and brilliantly done) example of this is the movie "A Beautiful Mind". The whole first part of the movie is essentially in first person POV, but we as viewers don't even realize it.

I tend to write in first person because it comes easier for me, for some reason. Others feel the same way about third person, and have trouble with first POV. I have an original story I'm writing that I started in third person, and it was a real struggle. It was like writing left-handed (I'm right-handed). I wanted to get deep into the characters' heads, but it was like there was a wall in the way keeping me from getting there. As soon as I pictured it in first and became my MC, though, the wall was gone. So four chapters in, after closely analyzing whose POV I really needed and narrowing down the theme and the plot, I went back and redid the whole thing in first. Now it feels right.

There's another story I want to start, though, that needs to be in third person. There are two characters whose POV needs to come through at different points. Although I know the whole story and could tell it like I'm describing a movie I just saw, I am holding off on writing it until my skills with third person have vastly improved.

I've read that one way of getting used to writing third (if you have trouble writing it) is to write a scene in first person, and then go back and change it to third.

I find that, as a reader, the writer has done a good job with third person limited if I cannot immediately remember whether it was first or third when I think back to it. Taming the Star Runner was like that, and she kept it in one character's POV for the whole book.

Good luck with your story, Rock, and feel free to send it over when you're ready!

Liz

[fairlane]

Sometimes I write in first person when I actually find the character hard to relate to, and it's an easier way of getting inside their head. Third person feels too removed in that case.

I get into the dilemma of writing from the point of view of someone who is smart but uneducated, although I figure their thought process can be a lot more sophisticated than their speech.

[Masquerade]

Right now I tend to lean more towards first person. But then, I'm a fairly new writer.
And I'll admit, I am a POV-switcher. I change it up a lot. People say they like to see everyone's thoughts. But I like this site because you guys post good, honest stuff. Half the reviewers on fanfiction.net just say, "Oh, I love this! PMS!" or whatever.
But anyway. I like first person and third person limited. Sorry for going off like that.

[Rock]

Hey, don't worry about it Sodame8. We all go off at one point or another. Thats the beauty of this site. We can all be candid about things.

Thanks for your thoughts!

And to everyone else. Wow. I didn't know I was missing so much on this topic. Guess I need to do more research huh? Well, thanks for your help!

Keep posting!

Rock