Bryon, Mark, and 1st person POV

[Nittanylizard]

Last night I was reading one of the blogs that I like to keep up with, and the author was giving his thoughts on first and third person POV. He didn't say anything that I hadn't read in some form before, but seeing it again, and having just been perusing this site, I had one of those smack-yourself-in-the-head moments and had to see what y'all think.

Now, I can't tell you how many times I have read people over on the Outsiders website say that they really liked Mark in TWT,TIN, but they were angry with Bryon by the end and didn't understand how he could do that to poor Mark, who was loyal to a T and just like a brother to him.

Thinking about the book, it is in Bryon's first-person POV. So, we are seeing the world through his perspective, not necessarily the way anybody else sees it. I find it very interesting, then, that so many readers liked Mark (naturally, Bryon did), but when Bryon comes to the realization that there's something wrong with Mark, with somebody who can do something wrong without remorse, they don't believe Bryon anymore. It's as if his initial feelings about Mark have merit, but once everybody likes Mark, Bryon doesn't know what he's talking about.

Did anyone follow that, haha? The main reason we like Mark is because Bryon shows us all his good qualities at the beginning of the story. If he had started out as somebody who was wary of Mark because he saw earlier on that shadow of whatever you call somebody who doesn't distinguish between what's right/wrong and what he wants (lol, I know there's a name for it), then we would be wary of him as well, right?

Anyway, I think it's kind of like the Ponyboy/Darry phenomenon (or Pony/Steve, for that matter): many readers think Darry is always yelling or Steve is a jerk because that's what Pony tells us at the beginning of the book, that's the way things look to him. By the end of the book, some readers seem to either dismiss, or completely miss, that the narrator has given a biased view of the people around them and that that view, in some cases, has changed by the end of the book.

Any thoughts?

[latch22]

Admittedly, I liked Mark a lot. I even liked him after the arrest, because in my mind, no remorse and all, he was an interesting character. I believed what Bryon said; it was true that Mark did seem to not have a conscience in a conventional sense, or maybe even at all. I was annoyed with Bryon but I felt for him, even though I couldn't understand why he did what he did. I did like Bryon, though.

And that's a good point: that because it's in first person we're inclined to believe what the narrator says, only this time we actually do break off and have our own opinion even after the narrator has disowned it, because we feel so strongly for the character in question, Mark.

I never took Pony's word for law, though. I saw immediately what Darry was all about and I liked Steve. But I think that I did take Bryon's word that way, only I didn't stop believing him just because I didn't like what I was hearing. I still liked them both.

I felt that detachment as well.

Oh, and as for Mark, in his defense he didn't want to be so upset with Bryon because he was his best friend. And in Tex--I'm going to assume that we've all read it--he didn't kill Bryon.

And, yeah, I went on too long again. I wonder if I even made a point somewhere... Oh, well.

Cheers!

[Nittanylizard]

That's a really good point, that the reader begins to feel some distance from Bryon, as he is distancing himself from everyone else in his life. I felt that detachment toward the end of the book, too. Whereas with Ponyboy, you feel with him all the way through, and I agree with latch22, it's much clearer that even Ponyboy recognizes that Darry isn't as bad as he makes him out to be at first. You can tell he's trying to convince himself that he's justified in feeling targeted by Darry.

I think it's so interesting, now that it's hit me - that you can have a protagonist who borders on becoming the antagonist for some readers by the end of the book, even though it's in his POV. It adds a whole new level of complexity.

Oh, and I love the notion that the reader sort of stays with the narrator's original opinion, even after he's "disowned" it. That's such a great way to phrase it, and it's exactly what I was trying to get across. I don't think there's a right or wrong way to walk away from the book, though re-reading what I wrote it comes across that way. I just find it so intriguing because I'm trying to write at a young adult level, so this kind of thing gets my writing radar beeping like crazy ;D.

Liz

[jrc]

I hated Mark from the get-go. I really did. My respect for him grew towards the end. Which is strange because I really liked Bryon...

[Keira]

I haven't read That Was Then, This Is Now, for a few years, but from what I remember (the emotions I felt surrounding the events of the book) I felt some what detached from Bryon. I liked him. I thought he was a good, respectable person, even if he still did get himself into fights and other kinds of trouble. But I respected him mostly for what he was trying to become.

I loved Mark from beginning to end. It broke my heart when he went to prison. He was loyal to his adoptive family and he had a certain level of emotions that Bryon did not seem to have. To me, he's the Sodapop of the story, because he works very hard (even if what he was doing was wrong) to help provide for his family, and he felt such a strong bond with Bryon and Bryon's mom, like Soda does with both Darry and Pony.

I always thought that even if Mark didn't end up in prison that time, that he'd still lead a life that wasn't exactly exemplary. But even so, I still thought Bryon should have reciprocated some of the loyalty. It wasn't as mutual as it was from the beginning. But he was also sixteen(?) and that can happen at that age. It's easy to go from utterly, distinct loyalty to one person, to another just like that. It's simple. It's sad, but it's simple.

In the end, looking back on it all - I can see Bryon's reasoning loud and clear. I once had friend (not quite as close as Mark and Bryon were) who kept getting into serious trouble and was trying to use me as her life buoy. Eventually I just had to break the ties. For my sanity and for my own well being. The fact remains, though, that it's sad any of it has to happen. But it's all too common for people to not realize.

[jrc]

You know how when you’re young you always know right from wrong. When I was eight I would have told an adult if a saw a kid on drugs, but once I reached middle school all those instilled values are completely lost. That's how it is, and I was happy that Bryon still had his values, of a sort.

[fosterchild]

I totally agree with Keira on her thoughts about Bryon. I haven't read it in a long time but I also remember feeling really detached from Bryon. Even in the movie.
I know what Mark was doing was wrong but I felt more of an attachment to him than Bryon.

[jrc]

I felt really attached to Bryon. Like, at the end when Mark is telling him he hates him, I laughed, sure, but it made me feel so bad for Bryon...And Mark...Sad book. But, yeah, I felt like Bryon was my best friend when I read the book. He just seemed so...real. Like when Charlie's talking about him being a trust-worthy liar...It was like he was talking about me. LOL I don't know.

[Keira]

jrc said:

You know how when you’re young you always know right from wrong. When I was eight I would have told an adult if a saw a kid on drugs, but once I reached middle school all those instilled values are completely lost. That's how it is, and I was happy that Bryon still had his values, of a sort.

I agree with you.

But in addition that, the more I think about it, the more I'm remembering, and realizing that Bryon didn't even confront Mark about it in the first place - he went ahead and called the cops. Yes, calling the cops was good, but... I firmly believe that Mark was honest when he was pleading with Bryon, saying that he would stop immediately. Bryon never even gave him the chance. Every kid makes stupid mistakes - but Bryon didn't even give him the chance to reform.

Even though Bryon was distancing himself from Mark, Mark was still feeling super close to him - and I think Mark would have done anything Bryon asked him if, if it meant that Bryon still cared. Mark WAS doing wrong, and he KNEW it - but like I said, kids do stupid things. People can have a turn around though, without needing to serve time. If I was Mark, I would have gone bitter too (come the era of Tex). He was essentially betrayed by his brother, even if Bryon thought he was doing the right thing.

Back to what Liz was saying though, I think that authors and readers alike need to be careful when dealing with 1st person. Not everything the character sees is really how things are. People have a very biased point of view on things. The same goes for when writing the story - if everything is true to exactly how the character sees it... man does that character have some extra terrestial intelligence or what? Lol.

Same goes for third POV. I think it's actually easier to convey a more rounded opinion/pov with third person, even if it is Limited. The author has more leway to show things as other characters see them, not just as the main character does. It's also easier to set up foreshadowing clues using 3rd person.

[Keira]

Does anyone know if Charlie was supposed to be black? I do not mean to come off in any way other than curious, because I always pictured a bouncer-like, stalky, broad, tan caucasion male. Not a skinny ol' black dude. Lol. I love Morgan Freeman, don't get me wrong. He did great. Though that scene where he goes crazy with the gun threw me off a bit...

[jrc]

What if Mark hit some kid with a car and drove away? Say, someone said, I'll give you some money if you scare that kid, by getting real close to him with a car. (I don't know when this would come up...) So, Little Marky Mark does this, but ends up running over the kid...Should Bryon of told that?

[Nittanylizard]

admin said:

Does anyone know if Charlie was supposed to be black? I do not mean to come off in any way other than curious, because I always pictured a bouncer-like, stalky, broad, tan caucasion male. Not a skinny ol' black dude. Lol. I love Morgan Freeman, don't get me wrong. He did great. Though that scene where he goes crazy with the gun threw me off a bit...

I don't think he was supposed to be black, though it doesn't specify in the book, as far as I remember. I pictured him pretty much as you did, and he must have been young (20's), because he got his draft notice. I've never seen the movie, but was surprised when I heard that Morgan Freeman played the part. As I understand it, though, there were quite a few aspects of the movie that were different from the book.

So there are a lot of opinions about the characters and the ending of this book, and like I said, I think they're all valid. Some people liked Mark, some hated him. Me, I was pretty neutral, but I really enjoyed Bryon's character. I might not have liked him in real life, but I loved being in his head. As far as the ending, I understood how Bryon ended up doing what he did in the respect that I sympathized with him, but I also was under the impression that it wasn't so black and white to him by the next day, and that he would forever be questioning that impulsive decision he had made. It was one of those point-of-no-return moments, and I could see him going back to it over and over again in his mind. He was 16 and upset and seeing things in a much different light, so it made sense to me that he would act on those emotions rather than being able to pull himself out of the moment and think things through clearly.

Getting back to what I had originally said, I agree with Keira, that authors writing in 1st person need to be careful about giving the view that their narrator sees, and filtering the world through their eyes, rather than inserting what they themself think the right or correct actions/thoughts would be. You really need to stay true to your character(s).

I'm not trying to give any answers or anything, just thinking through all this and typing as I do . When you write a novel, one of the most important aspects is that the main character changes in some way by the end of the story. In the beginning of TWT,TIN, Bryon saw certain qualities in Mark that he loved. Because some other aspects of his life changed the way he looked at some things, he very suddenly put together that Mark was, and always had been, the kind of person who would hurt other people to get/do what he wanted. So for the first 3/4 of the book, it would have been out of character for Bryon to do anything disloyal to Mark; but once he saw things differently, I think that what he did was in character for who he had become. I guess what I'm saying is that it's easy to play Monday morning quarterback, but regardless of whether Bryon was "right" or "wrong", the important thing to look at (from a literary standpoint) is whether Bryon did something that fell in line with who his character had become by that point in the story. As impulsive as it was, I think his decision was in character for that moment. The tragedy of the story is that afterwards, Bryon struggles with and desperately regrets what he did, but Mark, because of his personality (which we saw earlier in the book, the way he wants to hurt those who hurt him), will never forgive him, and Bryon knows it. I think it says a lot about an author to not decide what the characters *should have* done, but just to tell the story from the frame of reference of the characters. Nobody was necessarily right or wrong, it was just the way things happened. I think that's what makes it believable, and what makes both the characters real.

I realize this is long, but I wanted to add one more observation: In Tex, I think it was nothing short of brilliant that we see a small glimpse of Mark's personality in Tex (when he gets angry with Mason and realizes how good it feels to hurt someone who has hurt him) that comes out as an indirect result of his encounter with Mark. For anybody who missed it like I did the first few times I read the book ;D, Mark is Tex's half-brother.

Liz

[zevie]

Wow, Liz, great observations.

That writer/character thing totally rang true with me. It's good to discuss whether what Bryon did was "right" or "wrong" but it's not the writing issue, lol. I love it when protagonist characters do the obvious "wrong" thing - like you said, it's a huge testement to the characterization abilities of the writer. (Not saying that Bryon did the wrong thing here, just...saying.)

It really irks me to see characters quoted, and then at the end of the quote it says the author's name. I mean, it's still the author's observation, so it's nice that they're credited. But, especially when it's being viewed in a negative light, it's just not fair to assume that because the author's fictional character said it, the author believes it.

[BlindedxxFalcon]

admin said:

[color=PurpleI loved Mark from beginning to end. It broke my heart when he went to prison. He was loyal to his adoptive family and he had a certain level of emotions that Bryon did not seem to have. To me, he's the Sodapop of the story, because he works very hard (even if what he was doing was wrong) to help provide for his family, and he felt such a strong bond with Bryon and Bryon's mom, like Soda does with both Darry and Pony.

[/color][/quote]

Yeah, I get what you mean. It was the same way with me! I did end up hating Bryon, though, but now I see the light! Lol. Anyway, I'm the same way but I still hate Bryon, even with the wholle explanation. I mean, Mark did say he would stop if Bryon told him to and he was just trying to help Bryon and his mom...

[latch22]

Keira, Liz: I couldn't agree more.

And I did know that he was Tex's half-brother--via accidental spoilers from Wikipedia--but I don't think that I picked up on those glimpses of Mark's personality. That's great, though. Thank you for bringing that up.

Cheers!