Ponyboy's Age

[zevie]

Not sure where to post this, but I figure this works, heh.

So, this is not actually just about Pony's age - it's about the Tulsa high school system and his age. Pony turned 14 in July, right? And then he started high school. When he talks to Cherry and Marcia they say that he looks too young to be in high school, and he says it's because he is, and he was put up a grade.

Where I am, most people start high school when they are 14, or even 13 (as long as they turn 14 before the new year). High school starts in grade 9 here and goes to grade 12. Is this different in Tulsa, Oklahoma, or just the States in general? Or was Ponyboy going into his sophomore year or something?

A very small point, but I was wondering if I've gotten the whole high school system mixed up over it, heh.

[Tensleep]

You know, when I was reading the book that really sent me for a loop. Here high school is a 10-12 grade school. So I was really confused since I was turning sixteen the year I entered high school. I finally had to have Shadow explain it to me since my teacher would just give us funny looks when we asked anything. She missed out on telling us a lot, like why Sandy was going away... oh well, that one became abundantly clear once I started reading the fan fictions about it.

I personally think that being moved up a grade would be intimidating. Leaving all your friends behind, all those older kids graduating with you...Pony's lucky the other members of the gang were older than him and he had some familiar faces. Must have made it easier.

Anyways, I thought I would randomly put that here.

See ya in the funny papers!!!

Tens

[zevie]

But if your birthday was in July, like Pony's, you'd be 17 when you graduated, like him. That's normal here...which is why I don't get how he's skipped a grade. Is it just that in the Tulsa system you have to turn 18 before you graduate and he'd still be 17? If he started grade 9 at 14, he'd turn 18 a month (or two) after he graduated right? How is that different than normal?

He'd be 15 and in 10th grade...so Bryon and Mark would be 16 and in 10th grade, but Johnny was held back a year, and was 16 in grade 10...

Something just doesn't add up, using the Canadian system at least. (Although we've got different high schools...)

Math hurts me.

[zevie]

But if he's 16 at the end of grade 12, then he'd have to be 13 at the end of grade 9. How coule he start grade 9 as 14?

I feel like there is something very obvious that I am missing. Sorry, but I can't see this. I may just be unbelievably dumb.

[Rock]

Wow, you *all* have me confused. LOL. Okay, let me try to make sense of this.

So, Pony is 14 going into 9th grade. His birthday is in July. So he would graduate at 17, almost 18. That would be normal in the high school I went to.

But, what if he was 14 as a 10th grader? Then he would be 16, almost 17 when he graduated. That would make more sense to me.

And Zevie, just so that you know (since I have no idea how this works in Canada) some high schools here are reserved for 10-12. I dint know the reasons, I just know that it depends on where you live. I went to a 9-12 high school, but my husband went to a 10-12 high school.

So thats how I would make sense of it. But i haven't gone and studied the book - so if you have evidence against it, PLEASE tell me!

Thanks all. Just my guess?

Rock

[Nittanylizard]

I agree with you, zevie (not that you're dumb, lol). He would have turned 17 before 12th grade, and graduated about a month or so before turning 18.

Mars - you had it right the first time, and then you tried to use partial derivatives to confirm your answer ;D.

Assuming his high school started with 9th grade, everything indicates that Ponyboy was in 9th grade in the book. But, in most schools, the people whose ages are a little off are the ones who have fall birthdays, because that's where the cutoff date usually is (so you can go to school as long as you turn 5 by that date). It's rare to have a summer cutoff date. I have a nephew who turned 5 on July 5th, and went to kindergarten that fall. He will be 17 for all of 12th grade, and will turn 18 a few weeks after he graduates. So will some other members of his class. There are other kids in his class, though, with fall birthdays who will be 18 for most of 12th grade, because while they also started school at 5, it was just before they turned 6 rather than almost a year before they turned 6.

So the question is, even if Ponyboy's parents did wait a year and sent him to school when he was 6, and he eventually got put up a year, why is his age unusual once he gets there? There are probably kids who turned 14 a month or two after him and are legitimately in his grade.

What I think, at the risk of getting cyber-stoned , is that either Ponyboy's birthday wasn't a factor when SE wrote the book, and she came up with it later without factoring in that the book is supposed to happen a month after he turns 14, or that it was just one of those little errors that nobody bothered to calculate out before the book went to print (OR, the editor never knew when his birthday was, so there was no error). Really, if we didn't know Pony's birthday, there wouldn't be anything to be confused about. I had always thought the book occurred around the end of October or beginning of November (ice in the fountain, cold mornings...). Depending on the cutoff date, Ponyboy could easily be the youngest in his class if he actually turns 14 during 9th grade, even if it's just a month or so in.

Liz

[Nittanylizard]

"If the book is set in 1966, Pony has turned 14, he was born in 1952. He should have been in grade 8, but was put up to grade 9. So when grade 12 rolls around, he is 16 and about to turn 17, whereas the rest of his classmates are 17 and about to (or have if they have early birthdays) to turn 18. "

Exactly (I'm pretty sure we're saying the same thing ; he's sixteen the summer before grade 12, turns 17 in July, and goes into 12th grade):

9th grade - 14 (he was 13 when he left 8th grade, turned 14 in July, and moved on to 9th grade)
10th grade - 15
11th grade - 16
12th grade - 17

And he would turn 18 a month or so after graduation.

The thing is, in most school districts in the US, he's not considered a year ahead because most cutoff dates aren't until somewhere between September 1st and December 31st. That would mean even with an early cutoff, kids who were born later than him could be going into school just after turning 5. My sister-in-law turned 18 the August after graduating from high school, and she wasn't a year ahead; she was just one of the younger kids in her class. She started school about three weeks after turning five.

If Ponyboy were born in July, the ages above are what you would expect him to be without being moved a year ahead in most US school districts (including Tulsa's current regulations). The only exception would be if his parents had held him back a year before kindergarten, in which case he would be one of the oldest kids in his class, and being put back a year would just put him in the younger age bracket with his classmates, some of whom would be the same age as him because they started school the fall after turning 5 rather than waiting until they were 6.

My roommate my first year of college was put two years ahead in school. She started high school when she was 12 and graduated when she was 16. Had no social skills whatsoever, lol, but that's another story.

[Nittanylizard]

Hahaha, that's what's so confusing about it. If he were put up a grade, you would expect him to be turning 17 the summer after he graduates. That would mean that in the book he would have to be 13, since it apparently occurs about the September of his first year of high school (which is typically 9th grade). But in the book he says that he just turned 14 a month ago. So for all of 9th grade he's 14, he turns 15 in July, and he is 15 for all of 10th grade (then 16 for all of 11th, and 17 for all of 12th).

There's nothing unusual about his age for almost anyone in the country, which is why I think it was one of those details that wasn't calculated out. He either should have been a year younger in the book, or his birthday should have been sometime in the fall so that in order to be in 9th grade he would have had to turn 14 before, say, the beginning of September, but instead he's turning 14 in October or November.

I'm thinking somebody who was involved in making the movie might have picked up on it and just made it look like he was in a high school that went from 10th to 12th (they're rare, but do exist). I'm thinking of the paper he's writing on at the beginning of the movie, where he's got something like "10B" written at the top. But as far as the book, I still think it was just a snafu.

[printandpolish]

You guys are making my head spin!

[Nittanylizard]

Makes you crazy, doesn't it? Christine, I was thinking it was about time to start handing out drinks ;D.

The only thing about Cherry not seeing Ponyboy around much is that when she tells him he doesn't look old enough to be in high school, he tells her he's not, but he got put up a year in grade school. That's what I took to mean he's in his first year (if he's not old enough to be in high school, but he is there, and he was put up one grade, then he would be in his first year of high school, which should be 9th grade). That's why I'm going with your second scenario, and that either Ponyboy's birthday wasn't figured out when she wrote the book and she maybe forgot later on that he says he's been 14 for a month (so the book is supposed to be set later in the fall), or she didn't write out the timeline.

I've also looked up Will Roger's website to find out what grades they cover, haha. If I'm going to obsess over something, I go all out .

Liz

[zevie]

Hahahaha, I have opened Pandora's box.

Mars, I think I like your first option the best...while I like the idea of Pony being in 9th, the only way I can make my crazy brain accept that is if everyone is a year older there than in our system. So, I'm gonna go with your Pony in grade 10 scheme. Thanks!

[printandpolish]

artemisrex said:

Most states didn't use it until the seventies. Both my parents were born in the late fifties/early sixties and did not attend. My dad was born in WVA, one of the first states to get kindergarten, and he didn't go.

In comparision, pre-K is not available in every school district here -- most pre-K programs are paid or part of a daycare system.

I fit that time line (grew up in the 70s) and I attended K but it was voluntary and you had to pay. I was really sick that year so my parents pulled me because I was out more than I was in. I tell people I'm a kindergarten drop out.

[Nittanylizard]

artemisrex said:

Um... in the fifties/sixties, there WASN'T any kindergarten, guys.

Thank you artemisrex, my braney no workey no more, lol.

I'm going to try and summarize here, so jump in and correct me if I'm wrong:

At age 6, Pony starts 1st grade.
He gets moved up a grade at some point during grade school.

Given:
a. Everything in the book is correct,
b. The names of the school and the town are never mentioned, and
c. Ponyboy's birthday is in July,
There are two possibilities:

1. He goes to a school where the cutoff date is before his birthday, and is in 9th grade.
2. He goes to a senior high school (grades 10-12) and is in 10th grade.

"As for Cherry saying she hasn't seen him around, how much attention do you think she pays to guys who are a) a couple years younger than her, and b) greasers?"

Regardless of whether she's ever seen him or not, Ponyboy tells Cherry that he is not old enough to be in high school. Therefore, since he was put ahead one grade, he is in his first year of high school (which is why, if he's in 10th grade, it would have to be in a school that starts at 10th; if the school runs from 9th to 12th and he is in 10th, he wouldn't have said that he isn't old enough to be in high school).

So unless I have something backwards, lol, what we can get from this for fanfics is -

1. If you've got Ponyboy in 10th grade, don't say he's at Will Rogers. He goes to a high school that runs from 10th to 12th grades.
2. If you've got Ponyboy in 9th grade, the cutoff for his school district is sometime before the middle of July (so he was 7 when he started 1st grade, skipped one grade, and entered 9th after turning 14).

[Keira]

I never knew that about the kindergarten thing. Makes sense though. I can only imagine that in a few years or so, preschool will become a normal, regular, possibly a necessity for little kids to attend.

I think Liz pretty much summed it up I personally never had any confusion over the whole issue, but it's perfectly understandable where the confusion would set in. I'm kinda sad that I missed the debate over the last few days.

[Rock]

So, what if he was in a high school that started in 10th grade? In that case, he would be the right age (if he were moved up), and he would have just started at the high school. In the west this set up of 10-12 is not very rare. Around here, every other school district does it. Its the only thing that makes sense other than just a flat out error (which, is of course very possible. Every author does it at some point. Dates are hard to keep track of!).

Did you ever find anything on Will Rogers, Liz?

I'd really like ot figure this out. Its driving me nuts!

Rock